Nature Based EMDR Therapy

 

 

Transcript

Robyn Mourning: Hi, everyone! Welcome back to the Scaling Up Your Impact podcast. I’m Robyn with Scaling Up. I’m really excited, once again, to bring someone amazing to you, and have a great conversation to share.

We have really enjoyed sharing trauma-informed tools, mindset shifts and clinical strategies for therapists who want to grow without burning out.

And we also love bringing conversations and stories, ideas and imaginations from other therapists doing just that.

Um, so I’m really thrilled to be, um, talking with Tony Parmenter. He’s one of our consultants at Scaling Up.

Um, and he has an amazing… practice does some really cool things that you’re gonna learn about here in a few minutes, and…

Um, yeah, so, uh, my hope is that you tune in, um, with curiosity, um, and you leave with some inspiration for something awesome that you can do and bring into your work.

Um, maybe from nature, or maybe from, um, just some… a new idea that you’ve been sitting on, and this conversation inspired you to go forward with it, because you just never know, um, what your clients will benefit from when you trust.

Um, your own imagination, and combine that with your clinical skills and all the cool things you can do. So, without further ado, hi Tony! Thank you for joining me today on the show. It’s so great to have you.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah, thanks for the invite! This is exciting.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I would love for you to share a little bit about yourself, kind of where you are, a little high-level overview of your work, what you do, and then we will dive in from there.

Tony Parmenter: Sure, um… well, I am an EMDR consultant, and… so, I do some of the work with you guys. Um, I have a private practice that kind of spans…

Mm-hmm.

You know, starting in Iowa and moving east all the way to New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and Massachusetts. So I see clients in all those states.

Robyn Mourning: What’s that?

Tony Parmenter: A few places. Just a few places.

Robyn Mourning: Just a few places.

Tony Parmenter: And I see some international clients, too. Um, you know, doing EMDR therapy, and, you know, I kind of… I like to combine that with a lot of different things. You know, all my interests, like NDRs, a really good therapy. It’s been a good therapy for me to kind of, um, be, like, a really integrative therapist, so…

I do a lot of different kinds of things, um, I do a lot of work, you know, obviously across all those states. I do a lot of work online with people.

Um, but my big thing has been always… uh, trying to do work outside, trying to bring my practice into nature in some way, whether…

that’s just, you know, in the past, I would have maybe done in-home therapy, and I’d be outside with my kid clients all the time.

Or going on hikes, if I was in a… I worked in a partial program once, and so we go on a lot of hikes, or go fly fishing.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: Mm-hmm. And so, I do that a lot in my practice now, and… um, some years ago, I started actually integrating EMDR with fly fishing.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: And found that as a… you know, not just another way to do bilateral simulation, that’s kind of like… where it started, but I realized that that… it was a way for me to have a very grounded, nature-based experience.

Um, with my clients, and incorporate all the aspects of being in nature. You know, you have all the metaphors that can come from being in nature, you have all the five senses that are stimulated in different ways.

Um, for many people, the, you know, the kind of sounds that are in nature, the frequencies, are very, um, are very regulating, you know, a lot of it matches up with Stephen Porges…

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: uh, you know, polyvagal theory, uh, research into how the inner ear muscles work. You know, in the different states they are, hearing sound frequencies, and changing the states to safe, so…

Like, for a lot of people, being in nature is just regulating for them.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: And so, actually, like, in the warmer months here, uh, where I live, I’m doing a lot of that work with clients.

Um, and so actually, the cool thing is, is that that’s become a major part of my… my training practice now, um, so I’m moving into year number 4 of doing, um, a yearly training with people.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, and it’s getting really exciting, and I actually am… So we’re putting together one that’s gonna be out in Colorado, hopefully, and, um…

Mm-hmm.

And I’m probably going to Europe in April to teach some people out there.

Robyn Mourning: Uh, so it’s, yeah, really, really exciting. Wow.

Tony Parmenter: So, yeah, that’s been… that’s been a ton of fun, and um… I didn’t grow up fishing so much, and so it’s really interesting that that’s a part of my life right now. Like, in more than just a recreational way.

Robyn Mourning: You know?

Tony Parmenter: Mm-hmm. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, oh, my dad was an avid fly fishermen, and just fishermen in general, he loved it, and I’m in Colorado, so… He was always going up to the mountains and fishing, and I remember, you know, I was a big…

Robyn Mourning: I was gonna say dissection.

Tony Parmenter: I’m a big science nerd, so he would catch the fish, and I would… Learn about the fish via taking them apart and learning about… Yeah, like, I don’t wanna… I don’t want to trigger people, but yeah, um…

Robyn Mourning: Yeah, that’s okay.

Tony Parmenter: So I would like… yeah.

Robyn Mourning: Well, so the listeners know, in therapy, we always… if we do catch a fish, it’s released back. We do it as…

Tony Parmenter: Yes, it’s released back, it’s… softly and compassionately as possible, and hardly… and a lot of times, we don’t even catch fish, because that’s not the main focus. So, just so people can…

Robyn Mourning: Hear that. We automatically went to dissection here. We gotta come back.

Tony Parmenter: That’s not the main focus, yeah.

Robyn Mourning: Back in time, you know?

Tony Parmenter: Right, yeah, there’s… yep, yep. So, I just… I have so many fond memories, um, of doing that when I was really little, before my dad fell ill.

But, um, yeah, I just… Yeah, so I’m really excited to learn more about this, because I do have that tiny little connection. Um, for my early childhood, you know, fishing, especially the Blue River in Colorado. So, yeah, I’m just really… Really thrilled!

Robyn Mourning: Yeah, if this thing happens in Colorado, you should come out. Um, it’s gonna… we’re… we have to wait until… by the time this podcast comes out, we’ll know what we’re doing, but…

Tony Parmenter: Yeah!

Robyn Mourning: Um, we can’t reserve the place that we want to have it…

Tony Parmenter: Mm-hmm.

Robyn Mourning: Uh, until next weekend.

Tony Parmenter: But we’re probably gonna be an 11-mile Canyon, do you know where that is?

Robyn Mourning: Hmm, mm. Okay, mhm.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah, so yeah, if you… Come on out.

Robyn Mourning: What?

Tony Parmenter: Great! Alright, I’ll come on out, take some photos, and post… post so our listeners can, like, you know, listen to this podcast episode again, or for the first time this summer, next summer, and then see some photos. That would be really fun.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah. So, alright, let’s dive in a little bit. Let’s get into… let’s wade into the waters of therapeutic fly fishing EMDR, which is, like, within the umbrella or under the umbrella of nature-based EMDR trauma therapy. Um… Tell us all about it. Let’s geek out together for a little bit, because I’m super intrigued, and I know so many of our listeners are going to be really intrigued, even if…

They are not fly fisher people, um, or don’t want to necessarily integrate that, but they do want to do more nature-based stuff, and they will be inspired by this. And, hey, they might come out to one of your offerings or trainings.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah. So let’s… tell me everything. I’m really excited to learn.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah, so you started this… you started this podcast by saying something…

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

About hoping that people would listen to this and allow their creativity to kind of go along with their clinical judgment and make a great experience. I forget the exact wording you used.

But, um…

Yeah.

Tony Parmenter: We’re generally the best therapists for our clients when we are feeling good in the session.

Robyn Mourning: Right?

Tony Parmenter: Like, I turned down a job once. I got… I actually got hired at a… at a jail to do…

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: So to be a therapist once, and it was going to give me, like, a $10,000 raise, and the treatment, like, everyone was amazing, but I couldn’t picture myself sitting within… like, a windowless building all day long, like, that just sounded like I would be suffering. So I turned that job down.

And I think… I think part of this is listening to your own intuition, as a therapist, about what kind of settings and environments will have you feeling the happiest. If you have any influence on that, move yourself in that direction. And that’s what doing… that’s what doing therapy outside is… is for me.

Robyn Mourning: Yes.

Tony Parmenter: Um, I feel… I think I’m a great therapist, I don’t mean to, like, sound cocky, but I… I love the work I do, and I have great relationships with my clients, so I think I’m a pretty good therapist in whatever setting I am now.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah, we think so too.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah. Placebo… placebo effect is strong, by the way. If you believe in something, it’s good, right?

Robyn Mourning: Right, yeah.

Tony Parmenter: So… but, like, definitely when I’m outside, I am in a completely different space. The relationship with the client feels very different, I feel lighter, my language is different. And healing happens faster.

And so, like, that’s kind of, like, hmm… even if people are listening to this and they don’t want to go outside, maybe they can leave listening… maybe they can leave listening to this thinking about… where do they feel the best as a person? And kind of creating their therapy practice there, so that…

Yes. Yeah. They can also be the best fit for their clients.

Um, but nature… Right. Right, because we aren’t blank slates, right? Like… who we are matters, and where the environment that we’re working in matters, and if… you’re working in an office environment, windows or not, or some sort of… right? Like, how can you make that environment really reflective of you and the… what you want to offer and how you want to show up, and you make… you know, that makes you feel really good and like yourself. I think that matters. That’s really important. I love that you led with that.

Tony Parmenter: Oh, great, thanks. Yeah, I think what really matters, and as much control as you have in your experience to kind of… bring it in that direction.

Mm-hmm. To turn this into clinical stuff…

If anyone has any knowledge of, like, neuroception listening to this already, if not, they can look it up, but… when our nervous system is doing the best, and we’re feeling the most grounded, whoever’s next to us and near us will get that too.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah.

Tony Parmenter: And then we have co-regulation happening. That’s what we want to happen in therapy. That’s like, no matter what kind of therapy anyone’s doing, we want… co-regulation to exist.

Robyn Mourning: Definitely.

Tony Parmenter: Mm-hmm. So that people at least feel that and feel more regulated when they leave. It doesn’t matter what you’re trying to learn or do in therapy. That’s, like, rule number one.

Robyn Mourning: Right. Yeah.

Tony Parmenter: So… key. Exactly. Yes.

So, going… so going outside… you know, whether or not you’re fly fishing, being outside, you know, for me, allows for that. And so if anyone is primed to be outside, and then you have clients that way, like, that’s already, like, a win situation.

And then, if you’re outside, and you’re by the moving water… you know, earlier I brought up the Stephen Porges thing, he found out when he was researching for the polyvagal theory that the inner ear muscles change their focus depending on your nervous system state.

So, if you’re in a more activated nervous system state, you know, dorsal vagal, you know, fight or flight state, your inner ear muscle is perceiving low-frequency sounds more, because those are the sounds of predators coming from far away.

Robyn Mourning: Oh, interesting.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah, and if… if you’re in a more regulated state, if you’re feeling safer, more socially connected, your inner ear muscles are more attuned to hearing the sounds of human communication. It doesn’t happen to be close sounds. Those are in the mid to high range of sound frequencies.

And I found out… so I’m trained in the Safe and Sound Protocol, which is where I found… which is where I learned that stuff.

When I was… probably the second… the second year that I was doing my training, like, for therapists to learn therapeutic fly fishing with EMDR, I was trying to beef up the polyvagal part.

Um, so I basically just researched. I had to go through different… like, civil engineering journals to find out, like, what sound frequency ranges… like, what sound frequency is different? Water flow down, and it just so happens that the places where you go fly fishing, not Niagara Falls, like, a medium-sized river that’s flowing, is within that same sound frequency range of human communication.

So, you’re in that long enough, your nervous system will adjust, just like the Safe and Sound protocol, I think, works.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Tony Parmenter: Your nervous system adjusts and just relaxes.

Robyn Mourning: Wow, that’s cool.

Tony Parmenter: Um, for many people, right? If you have trauma by water, and that’s a trigger for you, or something, obviously that’s maybe a different story. So it doesn’t really matter what you do outside, that’ll be different.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah.

Tony Parmenter: I’m sure that same thing with the sound is… maybe there’s something with the wind rustling through the trees that’s also in that sound. I think just being outside, just in that way with our five senses can… really regulate us, and you can do any kind of therapy outside. You can just go outside and not talk, and have that be a therapy session. The person goes home, and maybe you feel okay.

Robyn Mourning: Right, yeah. Well, I mean, we are… we are nature, you know, humans are nature. We’re not living, you know, alongside nature. We are nature, we’re part of… like, the larger, um… like, ecosystems around us, and so, you know, being outside and having all of those positive effects, like, having it… you know, having our nervous system kind of harmonize with it, or ground in certain situations outside or different environments, that just makes sense that there is that alignment, because…

Tony Parmenter: Well, we’re part of nature, so…

Robyn Mourning: I love that. You know, now there’s some, you know, research or some other information out there that lines that up for us, so that we can figure out how to… kind of come back to nature for different things, not just for, like, fun and recreation, but also for healing, and of course, many Indigenous cultures throughout the world, across time, have been doing that and teaching that for a long time. So it’s not that it’s brand new, but being able to bring more people to the awareness and to the knowledge of just how much being outside and hearing the water or hearing the wind rustle through the leaves, or watching, you know, bunnies run around, or whatever it is, like, how much of that actually is meaningful to us and can be really healing.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah. I think that’s important to just remember.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah. There’s another thing, too, when it comes to being outside. So I have kind of a little bit of a background in adventure-based counseling. Before I was a therapist…

Robyn Mourning: Cool.

Tony Parmenter: I was… between being in the military and going to school for counseling, I was teaching English, and I was a very active teacher. I played a lot of games, so then when I went to school for counseling, I actually had one of my professors who was one of the big presenters and writers in adventure-based counseling at the time. So it just fell right in, and it really connected with how I liked to teach and do things. And so fun has always been a part of learning for me.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: And I think that that, for me, like, in therapy, we’re learning too. Like, our nervous system is learning, our body is relearning, we’re reprocessing things, we’re making new neural networks and things like that.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: And I think fun plays a big role in that. And when you think about… and so there’s this… the nervous system state for fun is like a hybrid state, right, between dorsal vagal and ventral vagal, like, activated and feeling safe. It’s actually, like, right there in between, so if you’re playing soccer with your friends and you’re really competitive, and you’re trying to beat them, but you’re having fun at the same time, that’s that hybrid state.

I’m sure this happens in other kinds of nature-based therapy too, without fly fishing. Like, maybe if you’re hiking, something like that.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: But if you’re fishing, and you actually hook a fish, you engage with that thing, and it becomes a little bit of a… like, of a fight, in a sense. Like, you’re connected to it, you want to treat it safely, but now you have a goal to accomplish, and your heart is racing, and it’s beating, and then you have that—maybe the therapist and you are working together as a team to get that and release it. You have engaged a different part of your brain that you don’t always engage in other kinds of therapy, and that kind of whatever you’re processing there in the moment might stick more permanently.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: That’s the one thing to think about being outside too, just thinking about nervous system states. I always try to make sure fun is a part of it. Also, relaxation too, but fun shows up in some way.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah.

Robyn Mourning: That’s cool. I love that. I do think that is really important. So… how does the therapeutic fly fishing EMDR work? Walk us through that process, or the theoretical underpinnings, or just the process of it—some of the elements you think people would benefit from hearing, so they can go online and learn more about signing up for a course, or as a client to experience it.

Tony Parmenter: Sure. So, I’m assuming a lot of people listening to this podcast are already EMDR therapists. If they’re not, they can look up the AIP model. It’s really just supercharged AIP, backed up by a lot more nervous system regulation.

So, in therapeutic fly fishing with EMDR, I come from an attachment-focused kind of background, so Phase 2 kind of stuff is really important to how I do the work. I think about Phase 2 in EMDR as far as grounding goes, being kind of like surrounding the entire process. It’s not just something we do, and then we move along. It’s creating the entire boundary around the process, and so we can always fall back into that anytime.

In a session, before I even bring people to the water, maybe we’re in an office, maybe we’re online, I’m making sure that they’re safe, we’re doing some grounding exercises. Part of that process is, because we’re doing something that’s new for a lot of people, thinking about the confidence factor, like, placebo. If you believe you can do something, or something will happen, it will have a bigger effect.

Before we’re even at the water, I’m introducing them to the equipment, letting them pick their fly, using everything as a metaphor along the way. And then progressively… we might not even go to the water right away in a session, we might take a little bit of time to cast, to practice.

When we go to the water, we usually do a grounding exercise near the water. There’s a lot of rocks where I am, so I usually have them make a connection to the environment in some way. We’ll do a mindfulness exercise, or deep breathing, or resourcing, using various parts of nature as metaphors. Depending on what someone needs, again, being attachment-focused, I think a lot about the qualities a person didn’t get during their trauma, especially if they grew up with childhood trauma, using the different things in nature to help enhance those qualities.

Maybe using trees as a protective resource, or moving water representing calm and peacefulness, just tapping those in. When we start processing, it starts to get a little different.

I would do kind of a ships-passing-in-the-night approach, standing near them to pay attention but not too close, just observing their processing as they’re casting and noticing. They’re moving a little physically anyway to keep balance. Then one day, a client said, she wanted me to fish too. I realized, as I fished too, I could feel the difference between us. I felt a shift between both of us to just be more relaxing, and I realized… like, this is co-regulation right now. I call that co-regulation casting.

If someone were to watch us, it might just look like two people fishing. It’s a lot different than doing EMDR in an office, counting sets, checking in. There’s less of that. I check in softly, letting the client know I’m nearby, fading back. The language is more relational—I call it buddy talk. Instead of asking, “what are you noticing now?” I might say, “hey, what’s going on?” Something much more plain, because outside is just way more relaxed.

Tony Parmenter: You know, people sometimes have physical experiences while processing, but overall, in nature, clients process really fast. They get through targets faster somehow. Even if we don’t fly fish, even if we just hike or sit by the water, we’re doing nature-based therapy without fly fishing. Everything can still happen. It’s really nice and fun.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm. Yeah. When I imagine that, it sounds really awesome. I think about my own experiences in nature, holding space for grief or healing—it feels like there’s more room for it, less fragile. In an office, one hour feels temporary, the room can’t hold it. Out in the mountains, with cliffs and rocks, nature can hold it.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah.

Robyn Mourning: Felt really safe and secure. And I could see if I were doing EMDR as a client, being in that environment would make processing feel less distressing, even if something big came up. Like a whale or something—it’s fine outside.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah, it’s very safe. The moving water helps regulate, too.

Robyn Mourning: I thought about my own mental resource, a calm, safe place I used to go. Being outside creates that for clients—nature holds the experience.

Tony Parmenter: Mm-hmm. That’s co-regulation. Even the small things, like moving water, help.

Robyn Mourning: When you do fly fishing EMDR, are the phases similar? Are you still monitoring disturbance levels?

Tony Parmenter: Absolutely. It changes how it looks depending on where you are and what you’re doing. If someone’s not in the water, maybe sitting on rocks, Phase 3 is done casually, in buddy talk. They choose their bilateral stimulation—tapping, rocking, or just micro-movements to stay balanced. In the water, we stand at the edge or shins-deep, and decide when to do the work. I check in casually, they cast, that’s the BLS—the bilateral stimulation. It started as casting in the river.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: I have a friend, Dan Pierce, who co-trains with me. People usually cast upstream, watch the drift, cast back. Very slow bilateral stimulation. Sometimes just standing in the water, small micro-movements are enough. EMDR 2.0 often happens naturally in this context.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah. So it’s not just the BLS, it’s about being in nature, swaying, moving, co-regulating, grounding.

Tony Parmenter: Right. Rhythm matters. Humans and animals sway. Holding a baby, you sway—that’s natural. Trauma can disrupt that rhythm. EMDR, BLS, nature, and movement help recreate those rhythms.

Robyn Mourning: I love that. You’ve really connected nature, movement, and nervous system regulation.

Tony Parmenter: EMDR is easy to decolonize. In nature, movements are intuitive, supports are around you, your body knows. Water and environment naturally help sway, balance, co-regulate.

Robyn Mourning: So you could just stand in the water and let the process unfold naturally.

Tony Parmenter: Exactly.

Robyn Mourning: When people learn EMDR, the focus often seems on BLS, but it’s really just a facilitator for processing.

Tony Parmenter: Mm-hmm. Both dual attention and BLS enhance processing, but grounded, regulated state matters too. Standing by a river, tracking water, trees, surroundings—eyes moving naturally, bilateral stimulation occurs without intention. Nature amplifies EMDR’s effect.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm. Being in nature lets more space come around for the process to happen naturally.

Tony Parmenter: Exactly.

Robyn Mourning: That’s amazing. I think I’ll bring my dog out for some EMDR outdoors!

Tony Parmenter: That’s quad lateral stimulation right there!

Robyn Mourning: (laughs)

Tony Parmenter: Yeah, it’s fun. Have you ever had the environment be too much for someone?

Robyn Mourning: Has that ever happened?

Tony Parmenter: Not for me. I do thorough assessments in the beginning, gauge comfort. Nature-based therapy can happen anywhere—even on a sidewalk in a town. Safety is key, conversations upfront, client has a say, know what’s around them.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: I prefer locations near ranger stations, bathrooms, Wi-Fi—still separate enough for experience. This ensures help is available if needed, communicates safety to clients.

Robyn Mourning: Yeah, wilderness safety is a layer you don’t get in offices.

Tony Parmenter: Right. Planning for medical needs, like diabetes, or physical safety, walkie-talkies, EMT on hand—all small safety measures enhance the experience and healing.

Robyn Mourning: That’s so reparative for clients, collaborative, and thoughtful.

Tony Parmenter: Even before technical EMDR processing begins, setting up the stage relationally is powerful.

Robyn Mourning: Phase 2, building trust, safety, grounding—essential.

Tony Parmenter: Mm-hmm. Small details matter: walkie-talkies, EMTs, summer heat precautions, micro-safety suggestions—they make a big difference for work and generalization to sense of being cared for.

Robyn Mourning: Clients with attachment trauma may have never experienced this care—so restorative.

Tony Parmenter: Yes. And it’s fun too. Clients often feel so good they forget they’re doing EMDR—they just want to fish and have fun. Processing happens naturally.

Robyn Mourning: That’s amazing. Tell me about your training.

Tony Parmenter: Training can be two full days, or an afternoon plus full day and morning. 15 MDRA credits, 15 CEUs, plus six months follow-up consultation. Group stays together, one hour per week, case presentations. One-on-one option available for new EMDR therapists—retreat style, communal, mostly experiential. Last three years: Vermont and New Hampshire, some PowerPoints, lectures, but three-fourths of the time on the water.

Robyn Mourning: Mm-hmm.

Tony Parmenter: I’ve started offering one-on-one option—still MDRA CEUs. Vermont training may be grant-funded if qualified for income. Accessible for new therapists coming out of grad school.

Robyn Mourning: That’s great. EMDR training is expensive, so accessibility is important.

Tony Parmenter: Exactly. One-on-one, two days; group, three days. I design a special rod for participants, t-shirt, summer-camp feeling, communal, fun, leaving feeling cared for and connected.

Robyn Mourning: Amazing. Your website has information, I’ll link in the show notes for listeners to learn more.

Tony Parmenter: Directory shows who has trained with me, people can find a nearby practitioner or contact me directly. I encourage creativity and individuality—make EMDR an art, outdoors enhances that.

Robyn Mourning: Inspiring. People can express creativity as trauma therapists, grounded in client needs, ethics, values.

Tony Parmenter: Yes.

Robyn Mourning: Directory includes people on East Coast, North West, middle, even Canada.

Tony Parmenter: Hoping to expand to Colorado, teaching others to offer this, not just from me, so local experts can provide trainings.

Robyn Mourning: That’s amazing. Thank you for sharing.

Tony Parmenter: Yeah.

Robyn Mourning: Listeners, reach out to Tony via his website for training or to experience this as a client.

Tony Parmenter: Final words: you have the power. Make your therapy yours, be authentic, focus on what you bring, grow as a person, prevent burnout.

Robyn Mourning: Thank you, Tony. Until next time, continue to scale up your impact!